#36 Commenti

  • Roberto Stocco

    Roberto Stocco

    I love both.
    If I have to choose, wine for sure.... but, please, don't tell me wine is healthy!
    Eventhough in moderate quantities is always alcohol.
    Cheers.

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    #1
  • Dea Elmi

    Dea Elmi

    Hi Roberto thanks for your comment, in moderate quantities alcohol is good for you, there is research out there I promise this isn't just me talking :)
    Ciao :)

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    #2
  • Filippo Ronco

    Filippo Ronco

    Hi Dea, thanks for your take on wine and beer comparison.
    I do not completely agree with this phrase: "There are good beers yes, but hands down wine is more varied, can be paired more easily to foods and well it's sexier. No bloating, no burping or any of those best if avoided moments so closely tied to swilling beer. Even the good kind"

    I've just get more closer to the beer world and I can say that it is really big and mostly undiscovered. The pairing opportunities are almost equivalent than with wines and beers can be healthy too for some particular reasons (for example it is good for mothers while alchool is prohibited!).

    The only point where I think wine win over beer is the complexity of that part of the process oc creation that starts on the ground with the grape. Beer seems to be a little bit more mechanic process than beer but I'm at a too early stage to tell it.

    For sure, I love both these worlds.

    :)


    Fil.

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    #3
  • Stefano Ricci

    Stefano Ricci

    Only a heap of clichè. I drink beers. And wine too. I like both of them. You drink wine. And you don't know what you are talking about when you talking about beers.

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    #4
  • Stefano Ricci

    Stefano Ricci

    Filippo, just to have an idea about the potentiality of the beer world, have a look at this festival (a festival full of bullishits but also masterpieces, it gives you the hint): http://beeradvocate.com/ebf/saturday

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    #5
  • Dea Elmi

    Dea Elmi

    Omg... a little aggressive aren't we as usual here... Why oh why Mr. Stefano Ricci aren't I entitled to my opinions and for whatever it's worth last time I checked I can wax poetic about wine...til the cows come home buddy. Chillout!!!!

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    #6
  • Dea Elmi

    Dea Elmi

    Also Mr. Ricci I do know what I'm talking about when I talk about beer, I grew up in the US where we have really good artisanal beers. The marketshare beer enjoys however and it's appeal in the college crowd is another matter, a business, marketing, image and branding matter. And once again, I don't come to your blog and accuse you of stuff, so please arretez vous!

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    #7
  • Dea Elmi

    Dea Elmi

    Errata corrige... its appeal and with the college crowd not in...this is what happens when I type fast sorry y'all lolz :)

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    #8
  • Stefano Ricci

    Stefano Ricci

    I am entitled too to say you are talking about things you do not know, I hope. Or not? As you surely know, California is one of the best place in the USA for drinking beers. Well, it happened more than one time to talk with Californian guys, explaining what and where drinking good beers in their state, so I suppose that nationality is not in general a good way to support our own knowledge about the beer world... Simply, try samplying some hundred of different beers and different styles, it is a more powerful way true knowledge...

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    #9
  • Dea Elmi

    Dea Elmi

    Yeah ok buddy but to come on someone's blog and attack them and say "you dono't know what you are talking about" that's just rude... I would never do it. I know that Cali is home to many awesome beers I love many India Pale Ales, and Oregon, and Washington State. Lots of awesome microbrewery brews being made right in NYC too, in Brooklyn.
    Must be cultural we do not customarily go and openly insult people. I guess here in Italy you do, I don't really care. What you think I know has very little importance. The rudeness of folks here is always a shock, I'm a nice person and it's always kind of jarring. Whatever say what you want, no difference to me. Peace out man.

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    #10
  • Dea Elmi

    Dea Elmi

    @Filippo - thanks for your message, as you see someone is flaming at me on my blog post. This happens often here, never in my other blog. Like oil and water - I simply do not mix well with some folks. Bound to happen in life I guess. Cmq sono contenta che ti stai avicinando al mondo della Birra, lo conosco bene e preferisco il mondo del vino. Plus I speak from a branding and commercial standpoint, as I'm sure you know as you know me. It's a war back home, trying to wrest some marketshare away from the beer drinking crowd in some demographics and we're not talking nice beers.. just average stuff. Cheers see you in Verona, also the sooner you publish info re the group dinner the better. Ciao Fil :)

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    #11
  • Filippo Ronco

    Filippo Ronco

    The big problem with italian is that we have at least 10 vocabular to better render the sense and the context of a phrase. If you talk about rudeness and I should translate it in italian I'll never know if you were talking about "maleducazione" or about "rudezza" that in italian are two well distinct things.

    I think that Stefano is more "rude" than "maleducato" and the way he replied to you with his first comment, might be intrpreted as a kind of honesty. Yes, a little bit direct to you (diretto is better than rude in this case) but still honest.

    Would you apreciate most somewhat very kind lying manners?

    I think this is a public place.
    If you decide to write here, you must be prepared to rude replies as well as friendly ones.


    Cheers, Fil.

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    #12
  • Filippo Ronco

    Filippo Ronco

    Apologize, just saw your last comment.
    That is the point: your blog here, is not an comfortably numb as your one with your only audience, what we have here something more similar to a port or a gym. Maybe you just need to familiarize a little with it.

    My suggestion: keep more concentrated on contents and thesis than on the form.

    Cheers, fil.

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    #13
  • Dea Elmi

    Dea Elmi

    Hi Fil I don't understand... concentrate on content and thesis than form...what? hmm also I think a minimum of public decorum can be expected. I would NEVER ever go to someone and publicly say you don't know what you are talking about. I already said it's cultural. I find it rude. But yeah at the end of the day sure it is a public forum and he can be nasty and tell me that I don't know what I am talking about when in fact I very much do. I just find it annoying. But whatever.... this is one of the reasons I don't post here as often as I'd like to. Is there a way to delete or block folks who's comment you don't want to recieve? I guess not. Pazienza. G'nite D.

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    #14
  • Filippo Ronco

    Filippo Ronco

    Maybe it is a cultural problem. Here in Italy we are not so interested in the form, often we prefer trying to geto to the point. After all I can't see nothing very indecorus to you, he just told you his two cents. You can reply, if you care. Or not. Other can get an idea just reading. That's the net baby, and we can't do anything with it!

    Anyway, maybe you might be a little bit susceptible or, as you said, we give less importance to those things than the importance you give, fortunately we're not all made at the same way.

    To answer your question, no, you can't delete or block other people (you can block for private message using your address book tool on Vinix but you can't stop any conversation just because you don't like what other people say :)


    Ciao, Fil.

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    #15
  • Stefano Ricci

    Stefano Ricci

    I think it is pretty clear the difference between insulting and frankly discussing. Anyway, I am not interested in the pleasantness, let me come back to the point. You wrote: "Wine is the most complex, aromatic and flavorful fermented beverage on earth. Beer doesn’t even come close.". This sentence reflects a view of the two beverages as if between them it should be a competition. They are simply different. More important, it is not true or, better, you cannot say that since they are different. I said you don't know what you are talking about about when you talk about beer and I repeat it. I tasted a good Champagne, a Barolo, a Bourgogne, a Corton-Charlemagne. Have you ever tasted a 10 years old Russian Imperial Stout? A Westvleteren (blonde or 12)? A 20 years old Gueuze? An Angel Share from Lost Abbey or a Supplication from Russian River? So, what we are talking about? May I point you out this? I suppose comments are here for this job. Cheers

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    #16
  • Le Uve Snc

    Le Uve Snc

    Despite missunderstandings due to language barriers, wine is more complex and aromatically variable compared to beer on tasting profile.
    Hops or malt, I believe, tend to variate their taste and aromas much less one year from another and one place to another compared to wine grapes: Vitis vinifera has thousands of different varietals you could choose from and the grape bunch you are working with is never the same depending on the "terroir" and vintage year.
    Second aspect: fermentation represents for a brewer 90% of the "quality game" he is playing (correct me if I'm wrong) while wine is already way diversified (Sangiovese or Cabernet or Gaglioppo or Pinotage, etc, etc, etc.... strong initial profile).
    Step three: ageing is fundamental to increase (or to decrease with poor winemaking skills!) wines carachteristics much more than beer due to time, operations and, especially, ageing container options (wood origin, wood toasting, wood size, steel, concrete tanks, etc.).

    I'm a winemaker and I might see things too much from my point of view but it's in the description of the process that you can understand how the two products have different unicity potential. If a brewer can correct me, more than glad to learn something new!

    And, by the way, I love (good) beer...

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    #17
  • Dea Elmi

    Dea Elmi

    Wow Le Uve thanks for your great comment, I am clearly just a consumer, but don't forget...where would wine be without our precious little consumers. You on the other hand are a professional and you round out my little (fact based) but very tongue in cheek fun post very nicely. :)
    I have not been able to convince neither my friend Fil or the Beer sherriff about the negative imapct that "flaming" or exhibiting bully like behaviour has on communication on line. A work in progress.
    Thanks again and cheers.

    ps I love a ood beer myself from time to time and at Vinitaly, Vinexpo or any of the other tradeshows I go to as a blogger, in the evening after tasting dozense of wines during the day we gladly quaff a fresh and tasty beer. Cheers again. Dea.

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    #18
  • Filippo Ronco

    Filippo Ronco

    Dear @leuve,

    as I've said before: "The only point where I think wine win over beer is the complexity of that part of the process oc creation that starts on the ground with the grape. Beer seems to be a little bit more mechanic process than beer but I'm at a too early stage to tell it".

    There are several beers very complex that have a very long aging exactly as we have for wines and moreover, hops and malt are only one part of the beer world, we have an incredible variety of yeasts too that are responsible of a variety of different aromas, lambic enriched with fruit inside it and a lot of other mixture.

    That just to say that the beer world is very complex.
    What the wine has more than hops is variery of grapes but someone that knows more than me on beers might confirm that we have a lot of variety of hops too?! I don't know! Just a newbie in the beer world:)


    Cheers, Fil.

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    #19
  • Stefano Ricci

    Stefano Ricci

    @LeUve

    while I am not interested in establishing between wine and beer is the best I honestly believe that beer provide much more variety than wine. Really, you can find more macroscopic differencies, but this is just my opinion and probably you are speaking about micro differecies like the ones implied by terroir.

    It is true that malt provide a very lower variability than grapes: you have many different kind but the implication from the origin and maltation process are smaller than for grapes. Don't forget anyway that you can use more cereals than only barley. Anyway, for hops, this is not true. Try sample Cascade variety grown in different places. And we have at this moment a great number of different hop varieties, and this number is continuosly increasing. No one at this moment is stressing the origin of hops like the way winemakers do with grapes. I think it could be in future much more interest for this topic but not at the same level since, as I said, beer is simply different. Hop is just an ingredient, you have to choose the good one but you delegate to big farms the growing of it. Yeast is very important, there are many different strains, also someone use bacteria and brett. But it is NOT the 90% of the process... come on... Aging: you can also put beer in barrel, obviously. Not a lager, but surely a barley wine (some names I wrote before are barrel aged). In beer you can also use spices and different ingredients. Also grapes if you want... And don't forget that water is not always the same... In beer you can virtually do everythink you want...

    So... they are simply different. In wine the point is (should be) the relation between grapes, terroir and human work. In beer the point is not terroir (at least not intended as soil), but ability, creativity and mixing in different way all the possible ingrediends. You can be traditional, you can break the rules and be innovative. The combinations are virtually millions, that's why I can say beer have more potential in variability. And could be very complex too. Also, I am not sure that complexity should be always the only parameter to value a beverage, better having many different good thinks in a glass or only one in a perfect definition? But this is another story...

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    #20
  • Le Uve Snc

    Le Uve Snc

    @ Dea: no matter what your skills, your knowledge, your level of interest in wine are, you are always HAVE TO expresss your impressions. From my point of view, when I make wines, I give the same importance to tasters (with a minimum of experience, logically) of all levels. Feed back from "precious little consumers" is vitally important for me when I travel and interact with passionate drinkers: they are THE market and not necessarily (luckly!) they thry to follow what the top wine critics say...

    @ Stefano: I don't have much experience with beers, I wish I knew more. What you write makes perfectly sense. However, I don't agree 100%:
    a. Are you sure we should consider adding other fruits or jellies to beer something that makes them more complex? When this happens with wine I personally consider the final product out of the traditional bounds of the wine category (Barolo Chinato, Vermouth, Grappas with honey, etc.).
    b. Probably I'm not used to drinking enough good beers but is ageing (time, container, operations, etc.) vital as it is to determinate the "life" of a wine? What I mean is that, p.e., if I make an heavily structured wine, I can't bottle it and place it on the market just 5 months after harvest as it will not express its full power and its peak of quality will be much later than that. This is mostly (not only) due to the oxygen progressivly "dosed" in the wine (through wood pores, with rackings, etc.). How do aromas evolve in beer with ageing? I believe, due to chemical interactions and transformations that happen without air (there's CO2) and consequently with a less intense "transformation" and complexation level of the chemical compounds involved in the creation of the general aromatic profile.
    c. I don't know how agricultural risks, costs and variables effect hops or malt: are they comparable with grape growing? From march thru october weather broadcast is vital for a grapegrower: freeze or diseases or heel or mould, etc. etc. in every season represent a constant daily risk to bring the grapes at the desired ripening point in the cellar. It's a quality and cost aspect that I don't know if hops and malt face at the same intensity.

    I forgot (d.): do you have any hints on how to select a good beer at a good price? A similar good suggestion could really start well my week-end...

    e. Ma chi è Mario Merli nella foto del profilo?! Chapeau...

    Dario

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    #21
  • Le Uve Snc

    Le Uve Snc

    Maurizio Merli, non MArio, ovviamente...

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    #22
  • Marilena Barbera - Cantine Barbera

    Marilena Barbera - Cantine Barbera

    @Filippo: the fact that today wine is "prohibited" to mothers while beer is not, doesn't mean that beer is "good" to mothers while wine is dangerous :)
    Beer was traditionally offered to Scottish mothers to make good milk, as well as wine was traditionally offered to Sicilian mothers to make good blood.

    Subtle difference, subliminal message. Maybe the huge companies' influence on alcohol regulations in the US can explain better that I do.

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    #23
  • Filippo Ronco

    Filippo Ronco

    Good point Marilena :)

    Cheers, Fil.

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    #24
  • Stefano Ricci

    Stefano Ricci

    @Le Uve

    a. yes. it gives you the possibility to do something different, if not more complex. an example: there is a very good Italian barley wine that is refermented with bio bluberry juice. can you imagine a Champagne made in this way? but there are a lot more of such examples, sometimes you never know the true ingredients since it is a "secret"... also, there are some traditional styles that make use od fruits in Belgum. if you check the festival I quoted above to Filippo, you can find beers made with bacon for example... ok, this is a bullshit, I totally do not agree with this adrift of the beer world that has the only sense in following beer geeks and making money but the relation between innovation and tradition is crucial in beer

    b. ageing in beer is not crucial as in wine. consider that the most of the beers are not intended for ageing but for a fresh consume. consider thaqt only a few are barrel aged. cosider also that in beer you do not have tannins or, in a very few cases (at least until now, see the point above...), they are very very light. yes, you can have beers with very big structure. in that case, some years could improve the product, also many years, but you don't have to wait 20 years to drink it at the apogeo. sometimes are months, sometimes are a few years, often fresher is better, depending on the style. anyway, I think beer drinker coming from wine have to reset his mind: aging is an asset specifically in wine, good ones. but why this should be an asset overall? you can say, in general, that years of waiting is a value. I can say on the other hand that freshness is a value, not ageing: think, for example, at cooking. so you must be there: keep a flying and taste an American IPA in San Diego for example if you want the best...

    anyway, regarding oxygen and barrel, there are beers that wait months, also years, before going to a bottle. they are a few, but they exists, and they are incresing since the market for them is incresing. I went to San Diego in a brewery that has 800 barriques full of strong beers... (some of them with fruits and with less or more brett influence)

    c. grape i surely much more influenced by nature. distic barley is pretty the same everywhere. ok, not THE SAME, but MUCH MORE sensible than grapes. hop is more sensible to whether, ground, parasites. the same one gives different flavours in different zones. but, again, it is not comparable with grapes. again, beer is different: you can do a beautiful Czech Pilsner style beer in Japan, if you have the right ingredients and the skills. not the same for Champagne... but you can also "invent" a Japan Pilsner in Tokio using Japanise hops if you want... only hoping it results in a good beer...

    anyway, probably the best expression in the wine world are incomparable. but, in my view, it really makes no sense comparing this two beverages in absolute sense. they are so different... if I want a Belgian dubbel, why I should prefer a Bourgogne? they are totally different flavour, they do different jobs. also, consider that the spectrum of flavours in beer has as a protagonist the bitterness, while in wine this is only secondary. and, I said before, should the complexity be the only goal? if I want freshness, honey, herbal, slight spicyness and drinkability (liters) and the perfect match, I want a German Pils. this could be much more than complexity, sometimes. it is like the difference between Giotto and Picasso...

    d. first try finding a good (phisical) beer shop where you live. maybe they can suggest you where to start. then, this are the first links that come on my mind, they cover all the beer styles, anyway google and facebook can give you more

    http://www.domusbirrae.com/
    http://www.birrerya.com/
    http://www.lacentraledelgusto.it
    http://www.inboccaalluppolo.it/
    http://www.birraland.it/
    http://www.impexbeer.com

    e. è proprio il re del poliziottesco all'italiana... siccome è nota la mia intransigenza e l'amore per la polemica, qualche tempo fa in altri lidi un frescone che avevo cazziato per delle banalitàse l'è presa e definì me ed altri gli sceriffi della birra. definizione che mi piacque e feci mia, scegliendo tra gli sceriffi il più duro di tutti e aggiungendo una stella all'icona che feci mia nel mio esordio su twitter :p

    @Marilena right, EVERY alcoholic beverage is dangerous... in US there is a clear warning to pregnant women on the beer labels for example

    @Filippo

    prima o poi 'sto sproloquio di filosofia alcolica lo riciclo su AdG, avvertito! :p

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    #25
  • Filippo Ronco

    Filippo Ronco

    @Stefano
    This comment has to be printed and pasted.
    Great take and many tanks to all of you for making all the discussion in english, very polite from all of you.

    Cheers, Fil.

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    #26
  • Le Uve Snc

    Le Uve Snc

    Yes, it's not possible to add pears to apples after all... but we winded up having a great discussion starting from Dea's clever provocation.
    Thank you Dea for bringing up a question that was only apparently strange (it was very "philosophy" driven as you can see from everybody's feed back above...), to Stefano for getting me (us) the chance to learn something new on beer, to Filippo for having created such a great web site.

    Buon 2012 a tutti!

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    #27
  • Marilena Barbera - Cantine Barbera

    Marilena Barbera - Cantine Barbera

    @Stefano: Cars are extremely dangerous, occasionally are planes, today we are witnessing the unfortunate case of a boat. Maybe also a flower's vase left unattended on your balcony could kill somebody on a windy day...
    But nobody would prohibit the use of a car to pregnant mothers. It is just a matter of how you use things in your life. Wines and beers are no exception.

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    #28
  • Dea Elmi

    Dea Elmi

    Marilena - thx for all your thoughtful comments, while I speak Italian and rather well, I've never studied it so usually I am loathe to write it. So my posts are generally in my language.

    I need to get in touch with you btw re my visit to yr winery, I asked for your friendship here so I can write to you. Cheers D.

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    #29
  • Stefano Ricci

    Stefano Ricci

    @Marilena

    the problem is that cars *could* be dangerous for everyone, pregnant or not. the probability is very low and the law is a Poisson distribution, that is: rare, but it can happen. you can measure it. so, we can decide to ban cars due to this very low probability. what is the trade off? it is acceptable? it is a social choice, that's why yes we use cars but we must respect speed limits, even if they are very often very stupid limits for most of the drivers: reduce the risk at an acceptable level

    alcohol is dangerous *for sure*. at *every* dose, because is toxic. it is dangerous to every one, but *in particular* for fetus. how much? I don't know, I am not a doctor but I rely on doctors and to their suggestions. and the risk distribution is not Poisson, it is a continuos one, that is it always happen: the more you drink, the more the danger. so I think that the risk for the fetus that the pregnant will be run over by a car is acceptale, so you can go out and walk on the sidewalk. the risk for the fetus implied by 3 glasses of wine drinked every day by the pregnant is, otherwise, unacceptable (for the fetus). simply

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    #30
  • Marilena Barbera - Cantine Barbera

    Marilena Barbera - Cantine Barbera

    @Stefano: That's why I said "it's just a matter of how you use things in your life". I agree with you: there’s evidence that 3 glasses of wine everyday for 9 months during pregnancy are harmful, of course 3 glasses a day for your entire life is too much, even if you are not pregnant.
    But what about a small tasting of wine (or beer) with friends, on a pleasant night, let's say once a month... I am not sure it is harmful, not as much as living everyday in a very big city with a polluted atmosphere.

    I apologise for going a little bit further from our initial conversation. What I personally do not like is the kind of terroristic mis-information that is delivered to people everyday without adequate support, just to push up the audience.

    Laws require tobacco producers to stick a warning label on cigarettes, but States gain a lot of money from sales, and no government would prohibit those sales. People lose a lot of money on lotteries, some get ruined by betting too much, but the Italian government wouldn't stop selling "gratta e vinci".

    My feeling is that laws and regulations are too often driven by corporative interests, without really caring about the truth, without giving full complete information.
    Moderation and correct information is the solution, not prohibition or terrorism. I don’t like living in a world where information “rides the tiger”, but it is just personal :)

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    #31
  • Stefano Ricci

    Stefano Ricci

    I say it's ok, I am a drinker, not a taliban! :) but don't understimate. the point is: can I decide for other people (the fetus)? that's in view the real point

    the same is smoking: once you do not smoke in private, for me it is not a problem. ok, there are some negative externalities, but it is tedious to explain. the same for the gambling: you play, you lose, I do not have to pay more taxes. I am a statistician, I do not play unfair games like Lotto or Gratta e Vinci :)

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    #32
  • Marilena Barbera - Cantine Barbera

    Marilena Barbera - Cantine Barbera

    Thank you Stefano for following me this far... and yes, I agree with you that it's not fair to decide for other people, provided that you allow your wife to enjoy a pleasant half-glass sometimes...
    just kidding :-)))

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    #33
  • Stefano Ricci

    Stefano Ricci

    @Le Uve

    just to report new talking points about terroir in barley malt: http://www.angelshare.it/2012/01/16/del-perche-bruichladdoch-e-la-distilleria-piu-innovativa/ (in Italian)

    this is about whisky, but it could happen in near future also for beers

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    #34
  • Le Uve Snc

    Le Uve Snc

    Stefano,

    very interesting, I think these guys are going in the right direction: dividing and making separated trial fermentation will lead to quality and diversification development. But, to get back to our inital discussion, trials on carachteristics of the many (or I may say "main"...) grape varietals have been widely studied in the past century in France (leader in reasearch on its indigenous varietals) and, relatively later, in Italy, Australia, USA, South Africa, etc. If you consider, for example, all the latest studies made in Tuscany by the Universities of Florence and Pisa on the many Sangiovese clones, you can understand how a winemaker has a lots of initial informations to work with to understand this grape varietal and, consequently, develope diversity in the wine he is making. As you correctly write, the big industry doesn't probably want that to happen for other alcohol beverages like whiskey and they preffer to limit the study development to maintain this status quo. But one brave producer after another working in the quality and terroir direction, could change that scenario some day too. I hope!

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    #35
  • Stefano Ricci

    Stefano Ricci

    of course. I also believe that cereals have not the same potential in diversity as grapes and beer diversity is more in mixing ingredients (beer is a "recipe", wine not) but anyway it is interesting also this sperimentations until they do noy drop in marketing speculations

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    #36

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